Thinking of switching to Programmer Dvorak layout [closed]

Question

I have been programming for quite a while and I have been told about the "Programmer Dvorak" keyboard layout. It would be interesting to hear people's views on this to help me decide whether I should make the switch.

The main things that interest me are:

1. Will I be able to type faster?
2. Will it work on multiple operating systems?

Theadora

Would this question be better on Programmers.StackExchange? – Kloster

@brad-larson : Voting to reopen. "unless they directly involve tools used primarily for programming". Programmer Dvorak layout sounds like a candidate to this exception I would presume. – Flaggy

I vote to reopen too. – Sikes

Also voting reopen too. (And I'm disgusted by the abuse of the diamond rights.) – Bunnie

Wow thanks for the reopen votes! i guess there are still some good dudes on Stack Overflow!! :) – Theadora

Some people just want to see the world closed :'( – Novikoff

I wish people here mention which languages they mainly use. As a Python/R guy, I don't think there is any more advantage than to need Shift to type in numbers... – Geographical

And what about the fresh Workman (P) layout? workmanlayout.org – Impostume

Answer 1

I've been using Dvorak since 5.5 years now, the standard Dvorak layout, on a US or UK keyboard. This means I've always typed blindfolded. You get used to typing blindfolded fast, even for the "special programmer keys" like square brackets or the pipe. Most of these keys are the same as on a US keyboard, except the ones around the return and backspace keys.

Since I've lost the speed I had achieved using QWERTY I can't tell whether I'm actually typing faster, I would say marginally, but the biggest benefit is that I type more sedately. If you type very fast with QWERTY, it feels as if your fingers had epileptic seizures. Not with Dvorak as around 70% of the keys you press (English language) are on the middle row; on QWERTY for 70% of the keys you are not on the middle row.

To answer your questions:

1. Not necessarily, but it feels better :)
2. No problem, most current OS'es, especially those with more than 0.5% market share, have some Dvorak layouts installed, ready to be used

If you decide to switch, do it the hard way. I printed out the layout and switched the layout on my Mac. Then I forced myself to do everything with Dvorak plus now and then typing exercises. Switching is terrible the first days, especially if you want to "quickly write an email". Don't switch back then! After two weeks you will achieve a reasonable speed, and from there it's an easy way to top speed. And you won't loose QWERTY; I type on QWERTY less than once a month, but after a few words I can again type blindfolded. I assume getting back to speed can be done within a day.

Flaggy

I have been using standard dvorak for 8 months now, and agree with many of the observations you made. However, to add perspective, I personally found the speed of adoption slower and more intrusive to my QWERTY ability on computer keyboard. I can still type fast using qwerty on mobile, but the dvorak muscle memory interferes with qwerty on computer keyboard. The question was specifically about "programmer dvorak". Be interested to know whether changing to "programmer dvorak" is worthwhile for someone already using dvorak. Any thoughts? – Razee

Answer 2

I switched from qwerty to normal dvorak 5 months ago and have increased my average typing speed from 45 wpm to 61 wpm, according to http://play.typeracer.com

I had some trouble with vim but I'm back to normal vim speed now, without any vim changes; it probably took about 4 months to get my vim shortcut speed back.

I'm now going to try out programmer dvorak as I do a lot of C++ coding.

I use a typematrix keyboard, which lets you buy a blank rubber cover and write your own letters on there. It also has switches to switch to dvorak and colemak modes, without any need for the operating system, but it doesn't have programmer dvorak mode. http://www.typematrix.com/

The keyboard is really awesome and I totally recommend getting one if you're going to change to a different layout anyway. I didn't plane to change to dvorak, but once I got the keyboard, it brought out all my bad qwerty habits (like reaching across the middle), so I thought as long as I'm re-training for this keyboard, i might as well learn dvorak.

The other thing is, you can't go back to the dark side once you've crossed over. I tried running with dvorak and qwerty for a while. I love dvorak too much and stopped qwertying for a month or two, and now I'm like a 2 year old on qwerty.

Update:

So I've been on programmer's dvorak for nearly a month and I'm very comfortable with it. I use caps-lock or num-lock to enter a lot of numbers, but usually just shift for a couple of numbers.

In linux I set up right alt and right ctrl to be the keys that change the keyboard to let you type ñ and accenty things (as I also type a lot of Spanish).

This was done with sudo dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration on ubuntu.

It is a lot easier to code on programmer's dvorak - in bash, python and c++.

The main benifit I'm finding is no carpal pain after a 10 hour typing session.

Also my average speed is still going up:

Update 2:

I've also bought the nice keyboard: https://ergodox-ez.com/

I've set up my own layouts on it: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/keyboard_layouts/kzzrbb

I had to move some of the keys around, because the keyboard has less keys than a normal one, but it's good in the end because they're all closer.

The one down side is that I now have two shifts; one to change to layer 2 to type numbers; and another which is the real shift sent to the computer (used for selecting text, etc.) - in the end, with practice, your brain learns anything.

This keyboard and layout is very anti-rsi :)

Anemone

+1 after a few years I can't image writing code without Programmer Dvorak. The fact that the alphabetic keys are the same as for standard Dvorak means that for serious work on somebody else's computer I can just activate the standard Dvorak layout and be half as good. For this reason, I use Programmer Dvorak with the ' and ; keys at the standard (Dvorak) location, instead of inverted. This is easy to do with a keyboard layout editor. – Fisticuffs

I'm still on programmer dvorak now. I don't find it too hard switching to normal dvorak; as long as my brain is awake, I get the ' and ; keys mostly right. I got a new laptop that doesn't have a numpad, so to enter long numbers now, I use caps lock and two hands and get it 98% right, I think I need more practice with numbers. On the plus side I can touch type numbers now, which I couldn't do before. I've also been having to use qwerty a few times a week, and have regained some speed in it. – Anemone

just to add some info for people googling. I switched to dvorak a while ago and got a real increase in speed when I got a new keyboard with blanked out keys. Another thing that's helped me is typing.io especially the clojure mode for getting the parens down. – Insolvency

did you try programmer-dvorak @MikeH-R ? kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak - Should be good for all those curly braces. – Anemone

yep, just switched to it a while ago, much better in my opinion I used the site to retrain myself to the new paren locations :) Only thing I'm not happy about is the numbers being different when it gets to that stage I think affordance beats the algorithm used to position the keys so I made my own modification to programmers dvorak to put the numbers in the "right" order. – Insolvency

Hm... "You can't go back [...] to qwerty." Actually your brain can switch quite easily between two layouts. It's like you learn another language. You don't forget English when you learn French... – Dann

It's like an addiction. I can go back any time I want to, but I don't want to :) – Anemone

I also disagree with the "can't go back statement". "Won't want to" perhaps, but I can type almost as fast on qwerty as on dvorak after years of using dvorak. This is partly because I use my wife's laptop a lot, and don't bother switching to dvorak when I'm on it. My main desktops (work home) are dvorak. It only takes me a few minutes to switch if I'm paying attention. – Twannatwattle

Answer 3

I use US dvorak, as it is more common than some of the alternatives. I used querty for 25 years and never could learned to touch type. Every time I tried my hands would go into spasms. A year or so ago, I switched to dvorak, and now I can touch type. I am consequently some what faster than before, but not as fast as a good querty typer (but then I never was going to be). However it is more comfortable, and less stressful.

Update(2012-09-04): I am now typing with my eyes closed, I can not remember what my keyboard looks like.

Update(2016-10-08): Still using Dvorak, but have to use querty at customer site, this is a pain, takes be a few seconds to get to the same terrible level of competence that I had before adopting querty.

I have also added a compose key, this is easily enabled on Debian (and most other Gnu/Linux), and there is a 3rd party app for Microsoft's Windows. I put this on the \| key as it is not used on my dvorak layout. I can use it to type £, ä, ę, é, ß, ♯ (that is a “sharp”, not a hash), x², ≠, ≤, ≈, ★, ¿, ☺, and more.

Alvita

+1 "I can not remember what my keyboard looks like" – Naara

Answer 4

Edit Oct. 2016

It's been 5+ years now, still very happy. One thing: I found it slightly harder to use Programmer Dvorak on Mac than on Linux (Ubuntu). The former needs a custom keyboard layout installed and there are glitches with shortcuts here and there (for example, I have to press Cmd+F in qwerty layout in google docs to find something, however, on Ubuntu Ctrl+F in Dvorak works fine). It's not a big deal in my opinion, still using it on Mac.

---

Using Programmer Dvorak for 2 years now.

I work on Ubuntu, it has Programmed Dvorak embedded since ages. Usually on all Windows and Macs I work with there is a pre-installed Programmer Dvorak layout (on some of them it is a default one which makes most people unhappy :)

Initial transition was quite hard, but now I can't be more happy. Typing speed has increased to 65wpm and goes up (I couldn't get higher then 50 with querty). What is more important, it is much easier to type. The hardest part was to re-map emacs and other shortcuts in my mind, but it is not really that hard as some people describe - after a month or so I felt pretty comfortable with them.

By the way I have created a Programmed Dvorak typing tutorial since I haven't found a reasonable one:

http://programmer-dvorak.appspot.com/

Inclement

I had a friend that told me the exact same thing 8 years ago. But I'm too scared to do the transition myself :D Nice tutorial, though. – Isolation

Answer 5

I've been using Programmer Dvorak for about five or six years. I find the syntax layout really, really useful for C++ programming. My typing speed for plain text is about 10% faster in dvorak (either plain or programmer) than it is in qwerty, but I'm sure my code typing speed is faster still. I regularly write and code on OSX, Windows and various Ubuntu breeds, and switch between layouts on all OSes with no problems.

Kriemhild

I'd agree with typing code is faster and fluid, but plain text is about the same for me. – Brickkiln

Answer 6

I've been using Programmer Dvorak almost exclusively for a year now, after going back and forth between it and QWERTY for a couple of years. I found it totally worth the switch, despite how difficult it was at first. The biggest hurdle for me was getting used to the top row keys. Programmer Dvorak takes its number layout straight from original Dvorak, with the odd numbers on the left and even on the right, and obscures them even further by requiring you to shift into them. The tradeoff is that just about all the symbols regularly used in programming are easily accessible with one finger. Square and curly brackets, parenthesis, and so forth are right there on the top row and do not require another finger holding down shift to access. I find this extremely valuable and coding without it now just feels... unnatural.

For your questions: 1) It took me a few months to surpass my typing speed with QWERTY (85wpm). I can't type that fast with QWERTY anymore thanks to retrained muscle memory ;) I don't think it's possible to be a master of both simultaneously.

2) You can install the layout on Windows, and the Linux distros I've used have it by default. They are different in one area through - the numeric keypad. The Windows variant that I've been using orients the keypad like a telephone's (1-2-3 keys on top), where in Linux they are where you would expect. Don't know why the Windows version is like that... it only made it more frustrating to relearn how to type numbers.

Saltire

Answer 7

I have been writing software for 8 years using a heavily customised Dvorak layout similar to Programmer Dvorak.

The short answer is yes, I can type code faster than everyone else at work.

However,

1. Typing fast does not matter as much when programming because I actually type very little (I wrote a small app that logged my every key press for a month and it was the equivalent of only 1 to 2 pages of text a day)

2. Touch-typing code gave me (minor) RSI because I had to frequently use symbol keys that are very far from the home row.

I am still using Dvorak and the 'optimised' symbol key positions (similar to Programmer Dvorak), but I only touch-type text (for example code comments) and revert to two finger hunt-and-peck when typing code.

Plucky

+1 for quantifying the (un)importance of typing speed – Constantia

Answer 8

People claim 1 to be true. That's the reason it was created. But I don't know of any programmers that use it (we do pretty much unorthodox typing with parenthesis and all so focusing on english style keyboard will not help that much).
Item 2 is true for Windows/Mac/Ubuntu. That is pretty much as mainstream as it gets. Any OS that allows changing the keyboard layout (pretty much anyone because even US and UK aren't the same) also will probably support Dvorak.

Theodora

I just noticed. Ipad only has qwerty. Not that I would ever use it for coding ... Sheesh – Theodora

Changing the cell phone layout was vital to my switching to Dvorak — after 5 failures trying to switch Desktop computers first. There is no touch typing in the phone, so there's far less muscle memory to be "reprogrammed". After 5 months using Dvorak on my Android phone, the switch on the PC was as difficult as any other touch-typist's but after a (difficult) month I was already plenty happy with my switch. – Cocksure

I program in dvorak, and it makes a lot of difference. Pleased to meet you. – Alvita