Should developers be allowed to participate in backlog planning processes? [closed]

Question

I recently interviewed with a company which has started introducing Scrum for their development cycles. I asked one of the developers how their experience has been, and it sounds like they are completely divested from the planning process. He wasn't allowed any input as to what went into a given Sprint, and didn't participate in any planning or grooming activities.

Basically, at the start of the last Sprint (or two) he was handed a to-do list. He had to breakdown items into their respective tasks (so they could be worked on over the Sprint), but wasn't involved in any planning activities; I'm skeptical he was allowed much input into how much effort an item might take -- I suspect the architects decided this for the team.

Is this how Scrum should be handled? My current team fully participates in all planning activities, continually adding our input as to how features may be addressed and how much effort they might take. I'm a bit skeptical (and nervous) about a company which simply hands developers a to-do list without asking for their input.

Note: I understand that once a Sprint starts, the list really is a prioritized to-do list. My concern is not having input into the planning process from the start.

Odense

Ah! They are following this new thing going around, it is called "Scrum But" fotoartglamour.com/pictures/mini-waterfall.JPG – Hubing

They are not doing scrum. Looks like a manager's scrum implementation ;) – Krieger

That company has no idea what SCRUM is. – Burlingame

It's Scrum, not SCRUM, Scrum is not an acronym :) – Lindley

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it is not about programming. – Simian

Answer 1

If those who are doing the work don't get to give input saying what amount of work can fit into a sprint and let the business decide whats most important and should be scheduled to fit. Its not going to work run away. They are using new trendy agile words but doing the same old things.

Keyhole

+1 for "They are using new, trendy agile words, but doing the same old things." – Nuzzi

Answer 2

(...) He wasn't allowed any input as to what went into a given Sprint, and didn't participate in any planning or grooming activities.

Obviously, they're still doing command and control and micro-management (the team is not empowered and self-organizing) and they are still using push-based scheduling (they didn't enable pull-scheduling).

Scrum has other characteristics but the above points are more than enough to say that they aren't doing Scrum, regardless of how they name it, they didn't really shift from the outdated waterfall approach (they just did put some lipstick on the pig).

This is a big hint that they're still totally clueless about what Scrum is about, they didn't get it at all. And this is not going to change without some inspection and adaptation, if they even want to change. If you don't have the power to make this happen, run away.

Lindley

Answer 3

Is this how Scrum should be handled?

No.

Meritocracy

+1 For 'Simplicity' One of the 12 Agile Manifesto principles – Hubing

More to the point, the question was mostly just a rant. There's very little to "answer" in a question like that. – Meritocracy

@S, sorry this came across as a rant. It wasn't intended to be at all. I'm still very new to Scrum, and I was wondering if I missed something in the very small amount of training I've had. – Odense

@bedwyr: It's not that it "came across" as a rant. Your question was -- in effect -- "do you agree with me?" What else can it be? I deduced that it was a rant based on the question. You can apologize all you want. But your question is still quite trivial. – Meritocracy

Answer 4

I worked at a place that called themselves agile. They had 6-8 month release cycles. Some things came from a backlog, but during the "Requirements Gathering" phase, basically the managers would spend a week or two meeting with various people in the company, and write up a feature list. The first day of each 4 week "iteration", the dev team would all get together and break down everything in a series of meetings. The last day of the iteration was deployment day, where there would be an intrim deployment that nobody outside of the dev team ever saw.

During the 8 month release cycle, the managers would touch base with the stakeholders maybe once or twice in the last two months of the release, at which point the only issues raised in those meetings that had a chance in hell of getting done before release were issues that were bad enough to make the whole effort useless if they were not implemented.

This is not agile, this is a variant on waterfall with a poor choice of ideas and methodologies cherry picked from other methodologies. At the end of the day, it still has all the same problems that waterfall does.

The lesson I took from my employment there is that development methodologies include things for a reason. If you are cherry picking from a methodology without fully understanding it (and by fully understanding, I mean having actually worked with it), there is a high chance that you will not use something that is actually vitally important to the whole thing. For example, in xp, kent beck advocates relying on refactoring later as a way to cut down on up front design. However, the only reason this actually works is that he also advocates TDD and pair programming. If you have a comprehensive test suite and an extra set of eyes there for the whole thing, refactoring is fairly safe. If you just cherry pick the first part and leave those two out, you are essentially cowboy coding.

I am extremely skeptical of shoppes that roll their own methodologies for this reason. There are an absolutely shocking amount of crimes being committed in the name of agile.

Perkin

Answer 5

Is this how Scrum should be handled?

Definitely not. Scrum strives to increase transparency. By blocking developers from planning activities, they are doing the opposite of what scrum suggests.

You talked about 2 points here: 1. Sprint Planning - The Scrum Team members should be Definitely required here. 2. Backlog Grooming - May or may not be required here. You have to use your resources wisely and with common sense. One team member with strong developer background would be okay here I think.

There is one more type in Scrum:

Release Planning - Some might say developers are not needed here. But as per the Scrum Guide - "Release planning requires estimating and prioritizing the Product Backlog for the Release". Well prioritization can be done by the POs and suggested by the stake holders, but estimating would be most accurate if it is done by someone who is actually going to do the work, so it is a good idea to involve developers here. Again, resources should be used wisely. If it makes sense to not involve all developers and have people rotate turns to estimate, that is not a bad idea.

I suggest follow this structure: Sprint Planning - part 1 : Estimation and pulling backlogs in Sprint from product backlog (PO, SM and Team are pigs here) Sprint Planning - part 2 : Tasking, estimating task hours and breaking them down. (SM, and Team are pigs, PO is chicken here unless PO is taking tasks as well)

Hubing

Answer 6

It is up to the team to figure out, during the sprint planning meeting, how it will turn the selected product backlog into a shippable product functionality. If they are not part of this process then they would not be able to commit.

Weigh

Answer 7

The answer to your title question is: Developers (team) must participate in planning meetings. Planning meetings are for developers (team).

The good approach is to have two planning meetings at the beginning of each sprint: Planning meeting 1 and Planning meeting 2. In Planning meeting 1 Product owner gives prioritized (and size estimated - size estimation is not done on planning meeting) product backlog to the team and team starts to discuss most prioritized user stories. For each disucssed user story team should be able to collect:

• Detailed requirements (for example which fields the input form has to have ...)
• Constraints (for example how fast the functionality has to be)
• Acceptance tests (verification of results)
• UI sketches (for example how should UI flow looks like)
• Acceptance criteria (validation from end user - acceptance criteria doesn't have to be real test. It can be something related to "easy to use" etc.)

There should be time boundary for Planning meeting 1. Number of user stories you were able to discuss can correspond to number of user stories you will be able to complete in upcoming sprint. At the end of Planning meeting 1 team must make commitment - say how many of discussed user stories will be done in upcomming sprint. Sprint planning meeting 2 is only for team because team further discusses user stories and breaks them into tasks.

Burlingame

Answer 8

Generally, of course they should. Obviously, it's never realistically possible to the degree that developers would like. However, if sprints are usually "Hair On Fire" type affairs, where the developers get no serious input at all... then at the very LEAST there should be regularly-scheduled "entropy reduction" sprints, where all tasks are selected exclusively by the developers for the purpose of cleaning crap up.

Behah

Answer 9

At least some developers need to be there so work can be properly estimated and pipelined.

But not all developers need to be there. All can be there is it makes more sense.

On the other hand, developers need to understand that the business priorities are the priorities, no matter what they think should come next. Everyone has to work together ot make it work.

Southard

In regards to your analogy, I bet not one single line worker at (insert name of auto mfg here) is there when they schedule the amount of time to build an engine :) this does not, however, change the correctness of you 2nd paragraph. – Nimwegen

@kevindtimm yeah i guess the analogy isn't so great. – Southard

At toyota there are supposed to be line workers involved in this. – Campagna

I'd believe that. Personally I hate these types of meetings, but they are definitely a necessary evil. I spent 2 hours last friday in a meeting reorganizing tasks for all the devs on the team.... – Southard

Answer 10

I'm not so much worried about my input, but about my insight. I recently was involved in a project where I had no knowledge of the project before the plans were handed to me supposedly complete. The nightmare started when I discovered that the process was not completely thought out and the data definitions were not complete. I wound up having to go through the whole process again to get the answers that I required.

Wealthy

Oh, you don't have to know the contents of the plans to know that :) – Campagna

Answer 11

The Team can be involved in the planning process without a formal process or meeting. The planning process is really very fluid. At the start, the goal should be to get to starting sprints ASAP. Spending too much time in planning before the first sprint feels very waterfall and is a waste of everyone's time. I, as a team member would feel relieved to not be a part of that, except for the fact that it indicates a dysfunctional nature to the organization. The Team should always be free to voice ideas on an ongoing basis (since that's when the real planning happens). But, 2 things you mentioned concern me most.

First, the Team should be the only ones to determine how many backlog items they can do this sprint. They certainly would be involved in estimating the effort. That's a big problem.

Second, the Team does not sound like they have access to the product owner (maybe there ins't even one here). Even if the team has not been involved in the "planning" thus far, surely if I were talking to the product owner in the planning meeting, or had access to them at other times, I would voice suggestions over time.

Peterus