Is the PS3's Cell architecture the wrong platform to be learning game programming?

Question

I have an opportunity to attend Sony licensed training classes to learn about programming with the PS3's cell architecture.

However I only have a rudimentary knowledge of C++ and was wondering if the PS3 is a bit of an overkill for a starter aspiring game dev like me.

And also what is the best resources to get me to a decent level in C++ graphics programming in about 2 months time?

Monaxial

Answer 1

The problem isn't so much that a PS3 is overkill, it's that the Cell processor is notoriously difficult to program to it's potential. The highly parallelized architecture is potentially quite powerful, but it's not easy to actually get that performance.

Whereupon

From what i know i may just be looking at programming one of the SPU's or the core processor. Thanks for your answer , will upvote after signing in :) – Monaxial

Rumors of the Cell being notoriously difficult are overstated. You need infrastructure to support a job system but once that's done you've just got to worry about DMAs. Sony handles the first part for you to an extent, if you're a licensed developer. – Mammary

The real problem with the Cell is that the SPUs have too little memory available and don't have a real shared memory. – Objectivity

Answer 2

I bet it will be fun and whatever you learn in the course will help you become a better programmer.

Coaler

Answer 3

Finally a question about my day job.... :)

A lot of what you learn about PS3 will be applicable to other architectures, as parallel programming is starting to look like the future. A lot of the parallel techniques used on PS3 are directly applicable on Xbox 360. I suspect a lot of the future game consoles will be going in the same direction, and we'll all need to start thinking about parallelization a lot more than we may currently.

That said, if you have only a rudimentary knowledge of C++, a lot of the material may be over your head. It depends on what you want to get out of the session I suppose. Are you looking for an intro to PS3, or were you hoping to be able to start making games in PS3 Linux the day after the conference?

Assuming you can afford it, the info will be interesting and probably helpful. I wouldn't pass up an opportunity like this unless you feel the cost outweighs the benefits. (I'm assuming there's a cost, I don't really know.)

Game programming resources are all over the net. If you want to do a crash course in C++ I'd pick up C++ Primer by Lippman et al. If you want a crash course in graphics then Real Time Rendering is the best starting place, along with a good book on math like Eric Lengyel's Mathematics for 3D Game Programming. Dig through some OpenGL or D3D tutorials as well; even if neither is commonly used on PS3 the principles are the same as any API.

Mammary

Answer 4

I think it's a great architecture to prepare for the future (multi-core programming). However, for most practical purposes you are actually better off learning windows-based game development since startup costs with consoles are much higher. For example, it would be much easier to start coding for DirectX.

So yes, in some ways you're seeking trouble. If you do decide to go with the PS3, make sure to check out the MIT PS3 course.

Browbeat

I am not to worried about the startup costs , I'm looking to learn game development mainly for academic reasons. Will upvote your answer once i signin .thanks :) – Monaxial

I still think there is more to game development than graphics. There are a few really good textbooks that cover everything, from AI to other topics. I think a great game design can be something like EGA Trek. I would read up a more comprehensive resource than worry about specific platforms. – Browbeat

Note that the MIT PS3 course covers an old version of the Cell sdk and there are some pretty big differences between the old version and the newest version. – Sumy

Answer 5

No not at all, it's just going to be harder if your use .NET as your primary language. If you want to use .NET I would recommend C#/XNA for the XBOX 360.

Edit: Here is a great link to get you started: http://www.cag.csail.mit.edu/ps3/

Dietitian

that link looks nice , i will upvote you once i can sign in with my OpenID! thanks – Monaxial

I appreciate that, I checked out this link a while back when I was interested in programming the cell. I lost my motivation though when I learned I would have to spend money (still in high-school). – Dietitian

If your serious about this they make you spend a little, you know that though, your looked into the Sony licensed training classes. – Dietitian

Answer 6

I think if you have the opportunity to attend vs doing nothing at all you should definitely go for it. The payoff from learning something from someone that knows more than you is a gift that a lot do not have. The fact that it's from a licensed trainer makes it all the more worthwhile.

Divergence

Answer 7

He's specifically talking about LEARNING C++ while learning the PS3 architecture, libraries, special tricks, etc. I would not suggest doing that. You need to be strong in your C++ kung fu to code well on the PS3 and you will make a huge fool of yourself if you show up and don't even know the language.

Worst off you will be wasting professional developer's time. They could actually use the info but you'll be eating up time with newbie questions you should already know.

I'm not trying to be mean; I wouldn't go either because I don't know C++ very well. Just try to be considerate of the other people that payed to go there.

Pyroelectricity

Answer 8

I've been teaching myself Cell processor programming (in C) for the last couple of months. It is definitely not the best place to start, since successfully programming the Cell requires mastering a lot of skills: C/C++, pthreads, libspe, the various types of communication on the cell (DMA, Mailboxes, Signals, Interrupts, Atomic I/O). To make this harder, the documentation for the Cell can be cryptic, hard to find, and wrong. If you use a more common platform (XNA, pyGame, SDL), there will be a much larger community of users. That is not to say that there isn't any community of users for the Cell, just that it is smaller. And even though there are other environments where one might find multi-processor programming, it can be difficult to translate techniques for these environments to the cell, due to its unique architecture. Also, using a standard PS3 with linux won't allow you to access the graphics hardware.

But it's not all bad. Learning the PS3/Cell will teach you a lot about programming close to the machine. You really don't have any choice, as there are not very many abstractions available to the programmer. Each SPU on the Cell has 256KB of local memory and if you need more than that, then you will need to figure out some sort of scheme to issue the correct DMA requests to bring the right values into memory at the right time and (hopefully) keep the SPU busy doing something while that DMA request is in flight. Learning the Cell

So, maybe not the best platform for learning, but given that you have the opportunity to take classes from Sony, this sounds like a good opportunity.

In any case, if you are interested, the book from Scarpino is a great reference, and has a couple of chapters about game programming on the cell with the OGRE engine, which might also be interesting to you.

Sumy

Answer 9

Although I have no experience developing applications on the 360 or the PS3, I have done a lot of research into the various merits of the two platforms. I have used C++ for a long time now, and even though I've built several MFC and BeOS applications with it, I've build a number of UNIX server applications with it, and still the console game environment is significantly different.

The PS3's Cell chip is really quite a beast to tame, as others have said here, and takes a Carmack-level of talent to properly utilize. That being said, there's nothing wrong with attending a course if it's free, especially if you get to meet people that have developed games before and could give you some advice.

If you want to develop games for a console, the best bet for someone with only a rudimentary knowledge of C++ is to use the C#-based XNA kit for the Xbox 360. If you're familiar with the way C++ works, C# isn't that hard to pick up. In fact, I'd argue it's a much smaller learning curve than to make the jump to multi-core, multi-thread Cell-based programming. If you've never developed kernel-level applications before, you should steer clear of that sort of thing until you're ready. Two months is not enough time.

There are a number of points that make the XNA platform very compelling for aspiring console developers, not the least of which is the relative safety of C# vs. C++, and the fact that XNA games can be sold through the Microsoft marketplace.

I don't know of many PS3 games that have been developed single-handedly, but there are a few examples on the 360 such as Braid that are pretty much solo efforts. The XNA examples are also quite interesting and educational.

Tiaratibbetts